The Tao of Gaming

Dice Chess and the modern Euro


I first saw David desJardin's "Dice chess" on r.g.b, I think. For those who haven't heard of it, it has the following rules.

  1. Play a game of chess
  2. Both players roll a die, the winner of the chess game gets to add +1 to his roll.
  3. Hi roller wins.
This came to mind when I was playing Hanging Gardens again (after playing it once a year ago). Hanging Gardens has the clever spatial building mechanic to build towers, but then the reward for building a tower is a tile draw and tiles score via set collection. Sometimes a cheap tower gets you a great tile, sometimes a great tower gets you nothing. Pretty random. You also have a card draft and sometimes the last player will always get an OK tile, and sometimes the first player gets nothing good.

All the skill gives you a bonus on your die roll. To be fair to Hanging Gardens, skill probably gives you +2.

Coupled with some cards that practically guarantee a tile versus terrible cards that can barely be played, I really should hate this game instead of being lukewarm towards it.

Now, I can understand the appeal of the luck ... people with poor spatial grasps have trouble with this game, and would get pummelled if you just scored some formulae for how big each section you built was. Still, it feels hacked on. I don't see how you can categorize a game as dice chess and like it.

tool:
I don't find it nearly as random as all that, given that you pick the tile you want from up to 6 possibilities - the only random tiles you get are the bonuses from making regions of 6+ squares, and you won't get many of them. I often decline to score a region in order to choose from more and different tiles the following turn.
6.16.2009 6:56pm
Brian (www):
I often find that if I built a 5 space tower, I'm often downgrading to grab the 3-4 tile I want. (Of course, I should just build a 3 space tower, keeping the potential five in reserve, but often the cards don't allow that).

Also the fact that there are some cards that make getting a 5 trivially easy (like the card that has 3 of a kind in a row) versus other cards ... if you always have 4 OK cards when you draft last versus a great card when you go first, that's pretty random. (Granted, not terribly likely, but small discrepencies in value are common).
6.17.2009 6:24pm
Doug Orleans (mail) (www):
I thought dice chess was meant to prove the point that a game could have largely random outcomes yet still be deeply strategic and interesting. That is, dice chess is exactly as deep as chess, it's just that the final outcome is nearly random. If you don't care much about the outcome (of any one particular game), then I think you should like dice chess about as much as you like chess (and by extension, any game with strategic decisions, regardless of the level of luck involved in the final outcome). Fluxx, for example, is very largely random, yet there are in fact many non-trivial decisions you can make that can improve your odds by a very small amount; if you play enough games, the better player will have a better winning percentage... eventually. (It's also true that the decisions are mostly tactical rather than strategic, but that's a whole different axis.)
6.19.2009 10:08pm
Kaelistus (mail):
Ditto what Doug said. There's nothing wrong with dice chess. It's as strategic as regular chess, but it fixes the "problem" of people who are slightly worse than you never having a chance at winning. Isn't this what euros are about?

Really in the end. its a question of preference: Would you rather win 100% of games that you are 40% better than your opponent, or would you rather win 40% more games than the same opponent? Personally, although I like abstracts too, I find the latter option more appealing.

I have to say, I hate agreeing with Doug when he uses Fluxx as an example tho', because I consider that to be one of the worst games ever invented.
6.20.2009 8:02am
Larry Levy (mail):
Even though I remember David introducing the concept of Dice Chess, I don't recall what point he was trying to make with it. But despite what you both say, it's not a game I want to play. As Knizia said, the point of a game is to win, even if your enjoyment of the game doesn't depend on your winning. If I get the feeling that the actual outcome has little to do with these interesting decisions in the game, then I stop finding them interesting. Instead, I'll focus on the things that do increase the chances of my winning and, if that's a random process, I'll avoid the game altogether. Mind you, it isn't that winning is that important to me. It's that the designer has set a goal for me and the point of a game is to achieve that goal; it's what gives the playing of the game meaning. You could say, just ignore the random part, but in this case, what you'd then have is regular Chess, which is a game I WILL play, so the end result is the same (me avoiding Dice Chess).

Let me put it this way. Suppose the main part of Killer Bunnies had more interesting gameplay than the current game does (and I've been told it does have its interesting features), but the result was still determined by the same maddening random card draw. Would you want to play it? Maybe you would, but I would stay far, far away.
6.20.2009 12:31pm

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